Post by David Lester on Jul 28, 2014 21:51:22 GMT
Specialization Tree Game Rule
Since we were discussing it, I was going to put up my thoughts on this, then give some options on how to handle it in this game, and let you as players vote on which option to follow.
As a GM, I have no reason to oppose non single class default warriors from being able to achieve at least mastery level in a weapon. I have always taken the term Specialization as a generic form for all levels of the weapon mastery, not just that specific level. (IE Specialization, Mastery, High Mastery, Grand Mastery). For a 10 years and more than 12 different gaming groups I have allowed anyone that custom built their character, and spent that high cost on gaining the weapon specialization trait to have the full tree of specialization available to them, and not found it to have any game balance issues.
In the time I have been playing, only four characters ever reached High Mastery or farther, and two of those were mine. Class wise, they were: Single Class Warrior, Paladin, Ranger and Ranger/Druid. Even though those levels were available to the clerics and thieves, they all found other things to do with their character points rather than spend it on high mastery and grand mastery.
From a pure game balance point of view, it weakens casters to use melee. A caster using weapons do less damage and influence the outcome of a fight drastically less than ones whom actually use their abilities.
From a player view, I can understand why clerics want the ability to specialize and farther. Most cleric spells are non-attack forms, and generally, you are stuck choosing between healing or doing something interesting with your spells. That turns most clerics into weak fighters whom have to save all their spells to heal. Which can be frustrating. I can see the same issue with a thief character, since most situations in a typical game make a thief little more than a really weak warrior with limited armor, whom sometimes can get off a backstab.
I, personally, do not see how allowing specialization and mastery to other classes whom have paid large CP costs to even earn the option to do it, lessens being a warrior.
Mechanics wise, let’s look at a fictional PC with straight 17’s for stats, one of each of the main 4 classes, all of whom have gone to mastery level with a weapon.
Warrior 7th Priest 7th Rogue 7th Mage 7th
Base Thac0: 14 Base Thac0: 16 Base Thac0: 17 Base Thac0: 18
#At: 2/1 #At: 2/1 #At: 2/1 #At: 2/1
Mod Thac0: 10 Mod Thac0: 12 Mod Thac0: 13 Mod Thac0: 14
Dmg Mod: +4 Dmg Mod: +4 Dmg Mod: +4 Dmg Mod: +4
Avg HP: 56 Avg HP: 42 Avg HP: 35 Avg HP: 28
Any armor Any armor Leather armor No armor
Any weapon Limited Weapons Limited Weapons Very Limited weapons
Can specialize in multiple
Gets 3/2 attacks with any weapon
The warrior here is still far better in a fight than any of the others.
If we take our fictional character’s to 18’s in the stats it gets more skewed in melee, as the warrior gains even more HP per level, as only warriors get the con bonus for HP with con’s above 16. Warriors only gain the percentile strength bonus which will increase thac0 and damage more.
All I see allowing mastery to other classes does is allow the Priest and Rogue’s to not be nearly useless when it comes to a fight where they can’t use or can’t afford to use their other abilities.
Now the options for how to rule on this game. (I am putting it to a vote because I don’t have any opposition to grand mastery. Doing so I think is balanced by the sheer character point costs i.e. a Priest that wants to grand master with a mace will spend: 52 character points to do so, while a warrior will have spent: 23. That is a lot of missed other skills for the cleric, and well if a mage is foolish enough to actually spend all those points on melee and to actually use it, that is just severely self-crippling)
[1] Strict by the book interpretation. Digging through the books that means, taking specialization as part of your class creation means the literal specialized level in a single weapon. Only single classed warriors are able to advance beyond this. That excludes rangers, paladins and kit classes, as they are not pure single classed warriors. In our group that would mean, no one but Jason’s new character qualifies to gain mastery.
[2] Middle Ground: Anyone that takes the specialization class ability can gain specialized and mastery. However, only warrior types can go to high and grand mastery. (That includes rangers, paladins and kit classes based on warrior types.) High Mastery costs three times the character point cost for a weapon prof, while grand mastery costs four times the normal cost for a weapon prof. For this that would mean in the current group: The wild mage/warrior, warrior and cavalier are allowed to reach high and grand mastery.
[3] Free for all. Anyone that takes the specialization class ability is assumed to have bought the entire “tree” for specialization. This is still vastly cheaper for a warrior whom only needs to spend 5 CP at class creation time to gain the option to specialize, while a cleric spends 25 CP to be allowed to specialize. High Mastery costs three times the character point cost for a weapon prof, while grand mastery costs four times the normal cost for a weapon prof.
Since we were discussing it, I was going to put up my thoughts on this, then give some options on how to handle it in this game, and let you as players vote on which option to follow.
As a GM, I have no reason to oppose non single class default warriors from being able to achieve at least mastery level in a weapon. I have always taken the term Specialization as a generic form for all levels of the weapon mastery, not just that specific level. (IE Specialization, Mastery, High Mastery, Grand Mastery). For a 10 years and more than 12 different gaming groups I have allowed anyone that custom built their character, and spent that high cost on gaining the weapon specialization trait to have the full tree of specialization available to them, and not found it to have any game balance issues.
In the time I have been playing, only four characters ever reached High Mastery or farther, and two of those were mine. Class wise, they were: Single Class Warrior, Paladin, Ranger and Ranger/Druid. Even though those levels were available to the clerics and thieves, they all found other things to do with their character points rather than spend it on high mastery and grand mastery.
From a pure game balance point of view, it weakens casters to use melee. A caster using weapons do less damage and influence the outcome of a fight drastically less than ones whom actually use their abilities.
From a player view, I can understand why clerics want the ability to specialize and farther. Most cleric spells are non-attack forms, and generally, you are stuck choosing between healing or doing something interesting with your spells. That turns most clerics into weak fighters whom have to save all their spells to heal. Which can be frustrating. I can see the same issue with a thief character, since most situations in a typical game make a thief little more than a really weak warrior with limited armor, whom sometimes can get off a backstab.
I, personally, do not see how allowing specialization and mastery to other classes whom have paid large CP costs to even earn the option to do it, lessens being a warrior.
Mechanics wise, let’s look at a fictional PC with straight 17’s for stats, one of each of the main 4 classes, all of whom have gone to mastery level with a weapon.
Warrior 7th Priest 7th Rogue 7th Mage 7th
Base Thac0: 14 Base Thac0: 16 Base Thac0: 17 Base Thac0: 18
#At: 2/1 #At: 2/1 #At: 2/1 #At: 2/1
Mod Thac0: 10 Mod Thac0: 12 Mod Thac0: 13 Mod Thac0: 14
Dmg Mod: +4 Dmg Mod: +4 Dmg Mod: +4 Dmg Mod: +4
Avg HP: 56 Avg HP: 42 Avg HP: 35 Avg HP: 28
Any armor Any armor Leather armor No armor
Any weapon Limited Weapons Limited Weapons Very Limited weapons
Can specialize in multiple
Gets 3/2 attacks with any weapon
The warrior here is still far better in a fight than any of the others.
If we take our fictional character’s to 18’s in the stats it gets more skewed in melee, as the warrior gains even more HP per level, as only warriors get the con bonus for HP with con’s above 16. Warriors only gain the percentile strength bonus which will increase thac0 and damage more.
All I see allowing mastery to other classes does is allow the Priest and Rogue’s to not be nearly useless when it comes to a fight where they can’t use or can’t afford to use their other abilities.
Now the options for how to rule on this game. (I am putting it to a vote because I don’t have any opposition to grand mastery. Doing so I think is balanced by the sheer character point costs i.e. a Priest that wants to grand master with a mace will spend: 52 character points to do so, while a warrior will have spent: 23. That is a lot of missed other skills for the cleric, and well if a mage is foolish enough to actually spend all those points on melee and to actually use it, that is just severely self-crippling)
[1] Strict by the book interpretation. Digging through the books that means, taking specialization as part of your class creation means the literal specialized level in a single weapon. Only single classed warriors are able to advance beyond this. That excludes rangers, paladins and kit classes, as they are not pure single classed warriors. In our group that would mean, no one but Jason’s new character qualifies to gain mastery.
[2] Middle Ground: Anyone that takes the specialization class ability can gain specialized and mastery. However, only warrior types can go to high and grand mastery. (That includes rangers, paladins and kit classes based on warrior types.) High Mastery costs three times the character point cost for a weapon prof, while grand mastery costs four times the normal cost for a weapon prof. For this that would mean in the current group: The wild mage/warrior, warrior and cavalier are allowed to reach high and grand mastery.
[3] Free for all. Anyone that takes the specialization class ability is assumed to have bought the entire “tree” for specialization. This is still vastly cheaper for a warrior whom only needs to spend 5 CP at class creation time to gain the option to specialize, while a cleric spends 25 CP to be allowed to specialize. High Mastery costs three times the character point cost for a weapon prof, while grand mastery costs four times the normal cost for a weapon prof.
